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Show Notes
Logan Lenz is a seasoned marketer and technologist with a wealth of experience in managing media spends for companies and clients. His recent focus on blockchain protocols and consulting for some of the world’s largest healthtech and HR companies has provided him with a unique perspective on the latest trends in the industry. As the CEO of Nucleus, a venture studio that connects individuals with the psychedelics industry, he is at the forefront of exploring alternative therapies for mental health and wellness. Join us as we delve into the exciting world of technology and wellness.
In this episode, you will hear:
- How blockchain is related to health care (and everything).
- Mental health benefits of psychedelics.
- The state of the science supporting the psychedelic industry.
- The four hot topics that are moving psychedelics further into the discussion.
- Advice for entrepreneurs in the alternative health sector.
- The good things that are happening in studies, clinical trials, and the latest trends in alternative therapies.
Logan Lenz is a longtime marketer and technologist that has managed over a billion dollars in media spend for his companies and his clients over the years.
Most recently, he’s worked on blockchain protocols and consulted for some of the largest healthtech and HR companies in the world.
He’s currently the CEO of Nucleus, which is a venture studio connecting people with the psychedelics industry.
Connect with Logan Lenz:
Website: https://withnucleus.com
Email: [email protected]
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/loganlenz/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/loganlenz
Become a partial owner in the venture through: https://wefunder.com/Nucleus
Connect with R Blank and Stephanie Warner: For more Healthier Tech Podcast episodes and to download our Healthier Tech Quick Start Guide, visit https://www.healthiertech.co and follow https://instagram.com/healthiertech
Additional Links:
- Shield Your Body website: https://ShieldYourBody.com
- Shield Your Body Youtube Channel: https://youtube.com/shieldyourbody
- Host R Blank on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rblank9/
- Shield Your Body on Instagram:https://instagram.com/shieldyourbody
Transcript
Logan Lenz 0:00
We have a technology that brings in all of the noise and the sentiments and the news. And what I just mentioned is horror stories balanced with success stories. And then we curate that so that our platform can use that. And we’re building machine learning and making it more intelligent so that we can compute real, futuristic probabilities that the industry can leverage. So that said, you know, I get to see it from all sorts of angles and perspectives. And that’s been my source of not just knowledge, but inspiration, because there’s a lot of good that’s happening. And if you just read a few studies, go through some of the journals that are being published, or even just focus on some of the clinical trials that might be happening around you, because there are a lot of them, you might be surprised to see, you know, just how much good this is doing. And it’s really exciting when you think about it that way.
Announcer 0:56
Welcome to the healthier tech podcast, the show about building a healthier relationship with modern technology. Now, here are your hosts, R blank and Stephanie Warner.
R Blank 1:08
Well, Steph, this interview with Logan lens, which as I say in the intro is a super cool name. We get into topics that we’ve never covered before here on the podcast, particularly or specifically, the intersection of technology and psychedelics in healthcare. So I was really excited to do this interview, and I’m really happy with where it went. Yeah, me
Stephanie Warner 1:31
too. I definitely was illuminated throughout this interview on things I just hadn’t thought about. I just, you know, really never thought about how technology blockchain healthcare and psychedelic industry can, how they’re merging together, and the opportunities that that brings. So I was, it was really fascinating. And I enjoyed it very much. I can’t wait for everyone to hear it.
R Blank 1:55
So let’s get into it. Yeah, let’s do it. Today, we’re joined by Logan lens, which is hands down the single best name of anyone we’ve ever interviewed on this show. With that name, he’s either a superhero or supervillain and we’re going to figure out which he’s a seasoned marketer and technologist with a wealth of experience in managing media spends for companies and clients. His recent focus on blockchain protocols and consulting for some of the world’s largest health tech and HR companies, has provided him with a unique perspective on the latest trends in the industry. As the CEO of nucleus, a venture studio that connects individuals with the psychedelics industry, he is at the forefront of exploring alternative therapies for mental health and wellness. Join us as we delve into the exciting world of healthier tech. Welcome to the healthier tech podcast. Logan.
Logan Lenz 2:46
Wow. Thanks for having me. That was quite an intro. I’m
Stephanie Warner 2:52
gonna have you thanks for coming on.
R Blank 2:53
Yeah, no, thanks. So yeah, no, I mean, Logan lens and blockchain and psychedelics this. This is already one of the most exciting shows we’ve done. And I
Logan Lenz 3:05
mentioned the lens like the eyeglass, I get that all the time. Go a lot of directions with my name, but I love it. Yeah.
Stephanie Warner 3:15
R blank. So we understand.
R Blank 3:19
So I guess as a starting point, because there’s a lot here that we can cover and that we will cover. How do how does the blockchain relate to health care at all? Before we even get into the question of psychedelics? So
Logan Lenz 3:37
we’re getting right. I mean, that’s a deep question. I think blockchain relates to everything. So when you say blockchain, what I hear instead is decentralisation. And just being a proponent of what the internet was supposed to be built for. I see user owned everything being the future, and what better place to have a user owned ecosystem, but around your healthcare in your healthcare data. It’ll make it more efficient and make it more transparent, and more importantly, more cost effective, which makes everything a little more affordable for everybody.
R Blank 4:11
And are there HIPAA issues with blockchain and healthcare data storage
Logan Lenz 4:18
doesn’t have to be because the single owner of the data that would be anything sensitive, would then have to generate some sort of mechanism to share that access. So if it’s user owned, of course, the user could own that. But a doctor would then only get access based off that voluntary voluntary sharing mechanism on the protocol. So like, if we’re talking blockchain, it’s all read write access, just like any code. And what’s better than code that is immutable, that can’t be penetrated. It’s very secure. So we just have to change our systems, but it’s very probably better than any secure environment and technology that we’ve seen before, which is partially why it’s so hard to adopt because people are so afraid of it if we’re being pretty honest about what’s actually happening. So you got to break, break the old systems to build new ones. And the new ones are too much of a drastic change to be adopted so readily. But I see the vision. That’s what I mean, we’re getting right into the nitty gritty, but that’s why we’re doing what we’re doing nucleus. And then to kind of come full circle back to your first question. I’ve had a passion for decentralisation and seeing what you know, specifically blockchain has brought to the world. There are so many use cases that the average person doesn’t see coming. That really, really smart people. And a lot of capital is going toward, that I can see becoming ubiquitous in the future. It’s it’s imminent.
R Blank 5:50
Yeah. So I can I can hear your passion. Could you educate us on just maybe one or two example use cases, so that people or listeners can kind of visualise the future that you see?
Logan Lenz 6:05
Oh, wow, I don’t know how educated your audience is. But since we’re on a health tech, podcast, right, that’s the subject matter. Here, I could focus specifically on insurance. First and foremost, I mean, if you have a transparent system, where the truth, there’s a source of truth that suggests, here’s my health facts, and here’s the benefit of, you know, some third party that is willing to be a financial instrument to the care that I need, then you have a doctor that comes into play, and all costs immediately are not fabricated. The source of truth dictates the efficiency. And it just creates these. So no middlemen, and less friction so that everybody kind of it’s a win win on the cost effectiveness side. So we’re seeing a lot of startups specifically that are working on insurance. And insurance Tech has a lot of things that I could talk about that are probably proprietary, that again, the industry doesn’t see coming and might be too early might be too extreme, but are very exciting, just because it would break down the whole system.
R Blank 7:19
So blockchain in use in insurance or other aspects of health care of providing health care. Is that Is any of that actually happening now? Or is it still in development? And it’s in the future?
Logan Lenz 7:34
I think you see a peer to peer version of insurance. That’s the closest thing to an actual like on chain infrastructure. So the answer is no directly. But are people working on it and figuring out the ways to kind of slotted into other protocols and things that are existing? I think we’re like two steps removed from it being a reality. But certainly, like I said, not only are the ideations developed beyond the point of no return. But there are really smart people working on this so that once the toothpaste is out of the tube, so to speak, there’s gonna be no going back. Right.
R Blank 8:14
So you mentioned while I mentioned in the intro, and then you brought it up, nucleus, Can Can you talk a bit about what nucleus is and how it fits into this vision of the future?
Logan Lenz 8:27
Perfect, so blockchains, sort of our very large, long term vision in terms of like user owned everything, but what we focus on at nucleus, in the short term is bringing people to the psychedelics industry. So we’re very focused on the mental health benefits of psychedelic treatments. That’s psychedelic assisted therapy. Specifically, if people have done research, you have MDMA for PTSD that’s really close to going through the clinical trials and being passed. And then you have psilocybin therapy, Oregon passed the state law where that’s actually happening across the state. And you see a lot of regulatory progress. So we’re the infrastructure, we’re developing ancillary services around this adoption. And all that means is that we’re empowering people. So education is a big part of that. So we have a data platform that educates. We do a lot of content creation. So we have blogs and other articles that we release in terms and also Industry Reports. But more, most importantly, we are a kind of a mechanism to connect people. So you have inside of these platforms, ways to ask for treatments and ways to connect actual practitioners or educate protect practitioners so that it can be certified to actually do the treatments. And all across that if you think about all the moving parts, we had to be set up as a venture studio to attack all these problems at once. And what a venture studio is, is basically a fast moving set of startups that brings in founders and incubators internally in one team, the infrastructure to say, this is something that’s worth testing into a market, the market validates it, then we can scale it on its own, or this didn’t work. Let’s go on to the next big thing. And that agility is really what defines the venture studio
Stephanie Warner 10:11
by so and so that’s, that’s really great. But there’s a lot there. But I want to step back just a little, just just a little smidge. How would you describe the state of psychedelics and medicine? Now? I think a lot of people hear about it and maybe have some preconceived notions about what that means. So what do you what would you describe the state of that, of, of that being now?
Logan Lenz 10:34
I think it’s very interesting to a lot of people, I think, you see the sort of adjacent realisation that this can have a lot of benefit for society. But it’s still really early. So our biggest asset, which is being early to a market and being able to capitalise on is also our greatest weakness, which is when you’re too early to something, it’s the wrong idea. And because it’s unproven, and it hasn’t passed through clinical trials, where this can become something that’s widely adopted, you get the dangerous side, if people are getting so excited about this, that they try it unsupervised without right the right protocols, and it becomes kind of this dangerous territory where media can capitalise on that. And then that’s why you rise, what rises to the to the surface is this interesting blend of it’s saved my life? And oh, did you hear about this improper dose that killed somebody. And that’s part of our job is to filter through that so that we can educate folks on what is actually happening and why the bad stuff happens, how to avoid it, because all we’re supporting is this future world, where it’s going through the right regulatory frameworks, people are actually going through and facilitating this under really, really intense supervision. And that’s medicinal and clinical, not recreation on street use. So I think the state is of this industry is very confused, but we look at it under this premise of people need mental health treatments, and these efficacious medicines are unavoidably here to stay. But we need to go through the rigorous process of proving that. And that just takes time. So we’re in this middle ground of, well, I want it now. But you can’t because it’s illegal. And it’s just interesting to be someone in the kind of centre of that trying to, like I said, filters through the data to try to make sure that people are understanding it in the way that you’re probably asking it from from this source of confusion. And where do I stand with it because I don’t want to do something illegal. So it’s an interesting wild, wild west, if I were to be honest, but similar to blockchain, what I mentioned about capital, we get a lot of investments coming into this industry right now. Because they know that the next big drug for treatment resistant depression, addiction, anxiety, PTSD, is going to be psychedelic, driven, or in that kind of category.
R Blank 13:01
So you, you, you already segue to my next question. So I’ll just frame it a little differently, which is, what is the state of the actual science supporting these therapies? And I guess, the way I would really tweak that is, how does this research happen? Given the legal status of these drugs? Is enough research happening? Can enough research happen when they are controlled substances?
Logan Lenz 13:28
Yeah, I mean, certainly, there’s a lot of data floating around. There’s a lot of clinical trials, a lot of observational trials. And yes, it’s a there’s a lot happening, and it can prove, like I said, the, the efficacy and what the future can hold, but then just knowing that maybe it’s not enough data, because you need like scale and the ability to have undeniable truth. So
R Blank 13:55
let’s do well, actually, but do you right, because medicinal marijuana kind of reached people and reach market acceptance and large chunks of the country. Absent, you know, that level of of clinical proof, right, or am I mistaken on that?
Logan Lenz 14:14
Yeah, I mean, for starters, if you’re gonna start to pick it specific components of the research side of this industry, I’m not I’m gonna claim to not be an expert. So I try to avoid these types of questions for specifically that reason, I don’t claim to be an expert, and then trying to do is build a tech platform that allows for people to understand this a little bit better. And we have an advisory board and scientists that work with some of these businesses that are driving these forward. But they’re the ones that are going to talk more, you know, from an educated perspective, but from my perspective, yeah, I mean, everything’s different. What psychedelics has going against it is that there’s so many different compounds and then you have now novel compounds in use synthetic compounds. Cannabis is like One strain, which is has been around and kind of understood from first to a certain person. Yeah.
Stephanie Warner 15:05
And I think a lot of people do, we’re already partaking or but when you’re talking about MDMA, you know, that may be a harder thing to, you know, get somebody’s mind around,
R Blank 15:19
actually, you’d mentioned MDMA, I think you mentioned. Well, you mentioned psilocybin. I’m not sure if you mentioned ketamine, or if I was just reading that on your site, what, what are the kinds of the key kinds of drugs that are being talked about or investigated for this, this type of therapeutic application?
Logan Lenz 15:39
I’ll just kind of summarise it through the for, like the quadrant of you know, it’s kind of it’s on a timeline of short term, long term, but also geographical. So yeah, I think ketamine is the most obvious because you’re seeing a lot of ketamine clinics pop up, because it’s legal, but it’s off label. And what that means is it’s actually not actually an anaesthetic, but the psychedelic industry sort of inherited it as an a psychedelic. So that’s kind of on its own. But yes, it’s in the family, right. So that’s growing, and rightfully so a lot of people that have treatment resistant depression, or that have taken SSRIs to really not have a positive outcome have seen really great results there. Secondly, of psilocybin, which is sort of doing the same type of thing for depression, but also, it’s being tested across a tonne of different conditions. And that’s gaining a lot of traction. A lot of people obviously talked about micro dosing, magic mushrooms, we don’t like to touch that, as an organisation. I also don’t like to talk about that, because there’s legality to that. But the medicinal and clinical side that Oregon, Oregon’s pushing through is promising, and we’ll see how that kind of, you know, gets scaled throughout the country. The third would be these retreats that do things like Ibogaine, Ayahuasca, you hear celebrities talking about ayahuasca, although it’s not legal here, you have a lot of Americans that seek that out. And that is happening. So a lot of people come to our platforms, trying to figure out more information about these medicines. And then they might book a retreat, there’s plenty of resources online, like directories that match you with the right retreats, things like that. And I know I said four, let me make sure I remember the fourth one, well, I was gonna mention I Alaska, but I mentioned MDMA fry, and that’s probably the leader in the clinical trial. So going through the process of is this going to become something that people are going to be able to experience or seeing right now, that 2020 For next year, veterans with PTSD are going to be able to be treated, and that’s going to be nationally? So I think those are four hot topics that people talk about in this industry. And those are moving the rest of the compounds into this conversation of okay, where does that leave, like Ibogaine for addiction has become pretty big and clinical trials in Europe, for example. And then you have some other like, really old historic plant medicines that have religious and spiritual uses that I think are here to stay and will have exceptions, you know, for those reasons. So you kinda have to pick a compound and then pick like the story that you can follow through to like, see where it’s going to end up. But we’re in the position of being agnostic and knowing that if it benefits people, and can treat them save their lives, things like that. We’re going to support it with data, support it with kind of bringing those people to understand it better so that they could do what’s right for them.
Stephanie Warner 18:40
Great. So so as the CEO of nucleus, can you tell us a little bit more about how your company approaches connecting individuals to this industry?
Logan Lenz 18:49
Sure. So as a venture studio, I had mentioned that we build startups and we have three real businesses that we kind of put in the forefront of what we’ve been building. The first is a data platform called newly that’s any u l y.com. Anybody could go there and start looking up any sorts of data across this industry. That’s organisations that are working on compounds. You know, retreats, we have a practitioner directory, clinical trials, patents, courses, if you want to be educated and certified to be a facilitator. It’s just sort of becoming like this one source platform for whatever you’re looking for. And we do reports and that’s how we monetize for our partners. Second is just education and contents we have for the investment side of the industry, something called psychedelic invest, which is connecting investors or the curious people that want to do something in this industry build, maybe start their own ketamine centre. It’s a good starting point where you can read articles and kind of see some other data points that we use from our newly database. And then third are our fastest moving startup. This generating the most revenue right now is the short term opportunity of people getting treatments in ketamine centres right now. But the doctors need more patients, people don’t know they exist. So we’ve built in our marketing arm called SkyRise, that puts butts in seats and kind of goes to the intake process of targeting those that we know can use the help, and getting them through their doors so that they can grow their centre. And we’ve seen a lot of great success there. As I’ve mentioned, now, there’s close to 500 ketamine centres. And that’s really just only taken off over the last few years.
R Blank 20:32
So and I was actually going to ask what the revenue model is. And so I’m glad that you you got there first. And please correct me if I’m wrong, I heard you on another interview, and that you said that you don’t see anyone as your competition. Is that accurate? Or?
Logan Lenz 20:51
Yeah, I mean, I feel strongly about this whole, we’re in this together rising tide, however you want to say this, this industry is so nascent, that if we were to sort of fight and even use the term like land grab, which a lot of people use for other industries that are new, that I think we were doing the actual outcomes, that we’re trying to achieve a disservice and the people that we’re trying to help a disservice. So I think the best way to directly answer that is that a lot of our quote unquote, competitors work with us. So we all look at the same data, we all sort of like curate the same types of success stories. And if we weren’t doing that, our jobs would be a lot harder. So competition is sort of, to me rendered pointless or in an applicable to what we’re trying to do to benefit the world, if that makes sense.
R Blank 21:44
Yeah, no, that’s, and I appreciate I appreciate the delicate wording of that response. Thank you. So based on your experience in both marketing and health tech, what advice would you give to entrepreneurs who are looking to make a positive impact in this sector?
Logan Lenz 22:07
Ooh. Yeah, I mean, specifically for talking psychedelics, I would say, really, really think about the long term and your position to the timing of the state of when you think these things are going to actually happen. Because not only his timeline been pushed back, because of, you know, macroeconomic concerns, lack of capital, things like that, but already mentioned how difficult it is to change systems, we’re talking high impact, because of how much work goes into change. And this is a very significant change that we feel strongly about the impact. But we have to work Tripoli as hard to kind of prove that it’s a value. So I think if someone’s trying to build in the space, start a business, it’s obviously fascinating, but don’t be distracted by the shiny object of, I’m gonna get to this and make a lot of money because it’s, there’s obviously going to be demand and think of it more on the whole, well, what kind of impact am I going to be able to make? And how do I carve myself out a niche, which is sort of hard to do when it’s this early? If I’m being honest, but it’s a hard question to answer because psychedelics is so like, narrow in what you can do. But there are still a lot of opportunities, whether that’s being a doctor yourself, or helping us build the infrastructure, we like to work with founders that could build technologies, and there’s just so many different things. I think the industry knows it needs that just having a little bit of understanding of what’s happening could kind of tap into a lot of opportunity.
Stephanie Warner 23:49
Yeah, it’s pretty young. I mean, it’s big, and it’s got such big potential, but it’s young. So it’s, it’s hard to know, you know, in this specific industry, where it’s gonna go. So building something around, you know, this, this infant, this tiny little, or this, this new technology, or this new opportunity can be a little daunting. But so that kind of brings me to one of the questions that I have is with something that’s so like, constantly evolving, and there’s new innovations and technologies, how do you stay up to date on the latest trends and developments in the industry? And what resources do you find most useful? For staying informed?
Logan Lenz 24:30
Yeah, I think we have the benefit of having built the thing that I think other people would. thing, right, so, so I admittedly, I’m not an expert. I already kind of mentioned that as a disclaimer that I don’t like to talk about this stuff as if I’m a scientist that had been studying the molecules for years. That’d be so fake of me. But we have a technology that brings in all of the noise and the sentiments and the news and what I just mentioned is horror stories balanced with Access stories. And then we curate that so that our platform can use that. And we’re building machine learning and making it more intelligent so that we can compute real, futuristic probabilities that the industry can leverage. So that said, you know, I get to see it from all sorts of angles and perspectives. And that’s been my source of not just knowledge, but inspiration, because there’s a lot of good that’s happening. And if you just read a few studies, go through some of the journals that are being published, or even just focus on some of the clinical trials that might be happening around you, because there are a lot of them, you might be surprised to see, you know, just how much good this is doing. And it’s really exciting when you think about it that way.
R Blank 25:46
So once once our listeners go check you out at with nucleus.com. And they they get excited by by all the information that you’ve presented in the the positive direction, that things seem to be going, I understand that you’re running a crowdfunding campaign, is that right?
Logan Lenz 26:05
That is correct. We are live on we funder. So it’s we funder.com/nucleus. And yeah, like I said, the environment is tough right now. But we’ve already raised over $250,000, we’re planning on closing it pretty soon. But it’s going to help us kind of continue to do what we’re doing, we’re pretty close to break, even if we’re being honest with the businesses there. But because we’re a venture studio, we want to be able to continue to keep all of our startups going, and then spin them off into their own kind of entity and raise money. Once everything starts, it sort of balances out. So being an investor in nucleus means you get wider exposure and just like ducks, so if you’re at all interested, it’s almost an answer to your question earlier, of like someone that wants to come in and work with psychedelics, what better way than to have a diversified portfolio, which is nucleus and own a piece of what we’re building and be a part of, you can even contribute as an entrepreneur that ends up building something in our ecosystem.
R Blank 27:04
That’s, that’s cool. So for our listeners, who might be familiar with Kickstarter or Indiegogo, as crowdfunding, could you just give a short explanation of how we funder is different and how their participation in your venture would be different?
Logan Lenz 27:21
Yes, thank you, I sort of assumed that people have done this before. But appreciate the opportunity to say that in equity crowdfunding, it’s different than something like quick Kickstarter and Indiegogo, those are usually buying a prod product or sort of funding a project to make sure it happens. What’s different with we funder and other crowdfunding, that’s for equity, is you actually get a stake in the company. So you end up getting equity, you are an owner of nucleus in this case, and you get the upside potential as if any investor that would have come in before you or that comes in, after as we succeed, you succeed as a partial owner. And what’s even better as you get to kind of be a part of the journey. So we funder becomes the platform where we get to correspond with you as an owner, and you get to contribute and sort of, you know, answer your question, state your opinions, and be, you know, playing role a contributor in this very exciting journey that we have ahead of us. So it’s a $200, minimum to invest, so anyone can do it. That’s sort of our
R Blank 28:26
$400 My listeners can become a partial owner of this venture.
Logan Lenz 28:34
Yeah, and the cool and if you think about early psychedelics is we’re gonna stick around no matter what we are currently funded by a venture fund, which gives us a great position to kind of angle toward what’s going to happen in this industry. So we’re not going to go anywhere in the fact that this is just going to become more of a popular topic and a very competitive industry. There’s a lot of upside obviously to play a role through the funder in that way.
R Blank 29:01
Cool. So everyone can go to with nucleus.com and right there at the top there’s a button says invest in nucleus and you can see all about what Logan was just talking about login other than the website and the we funder campaign or is there anywhere else you would like our listeners to connect with you
Logan Lenz 29:19
know, I think that’s a good place from the corporate side for nucleus if you want to reach out to me I’m Logan lens, just like my name first and last together on Twitter. Pretty much anywhere you look I’ve sort of secured that. But also you can email me Logan at any of our domains will forward to me and I’m happy to field and talk with anybody that’s listening that’s wanting to have a conversation about any of this stuff.
R Blank 29:46
I love all so cool. And we’ll have all of those links in the show notes Logan, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day. I know running. Running a business like that doesn’t leave a whole lot of free time. So I appreciate you setting some aside to come join us on the healthier tech podcast and and help educate us on this really interesting intersection of of tech and healthcare.
Stephanie Warner 30:10
Yeah, it’s really really interesting and I vote superhero.
R Blank 30:18
See how much you promote some shares the episode?
Stephanie Warner 30:22
Pretty sure yeah, thank you for thank you for illuminating like my mind was blown was actually more quiet than normal because I there a lot of these things I haven’t really thought about before. And kind of my mind is just kind of turning with these these concepts that I hadn’t put together before. And I really appreciate the work that you’re doing and I appreciate you coming on and sharing this with our listeners.
Logan Lenz 30:43
Thank you for having me. It’s been a fantastic conversation.
Announcer 30:47
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the healthier tech podcast. Remember to check the show notes for all the links and resources mentioned in the show. Please like and subscribe to the healthier tech podcast on Apple, Spotify or your podcast platform of choice. Get your free quickstart guide to building a healthy relationship with technology and our latest information at healthier tech.co
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
